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Dialogue between Hatto Fischer and Bart Verschaffel
Hatto Fischer
To review with you, Bart the ECCM Symposium "Productivity of Culture' by way of dialogue reminds me of what we did back then in 1994. At that time there took place here in Athens the Fifth Seminar called officially 'Culture, Building Stone for Europe 2002' but known best amongst its 100 participants and 35 poets as 'Cultural Actions for Europe'. You had just then completed your task as coordinator for literature in Antwerp when European Capital of Culture in 1993 with Eric Antonis as artistic director. Together we did draw some conclusions of the Fifth Seminar by way of dialogue, but one which stuck in my mind was you saying many cities want to be European Capitals of Culture but few are really prepared when they receive the designation as they are easily overdemanded.
By comparison it seems that the combination of this ECCM Symposium about 'Productivity of Culture' involving different sessions and the Kids' Guernica Exhibition has one urgent message to convey, namely that culture and more so the imagination of children is needed to resolve conflicts and disagreements peacefully. Given the confusion about the term culture, that is whether or not a tool for peace or a cause of war, I find it important what you have developed over the years in your own way of thinking about crucial issues affecting us all. So what are in your opinion the prerequisite for both democracy and peace in a world bent on continuing war without impunity and no political consequences being drawn by those responsible in the first place to take up arms instead of talking with the other side?
Bart Verschaffel
I would stress the importance of such a cultural development which allows us to recognize truths as 'cultural truths' which everyone can discuss and question. Only then do we have the freedom of dialogue and practice a discourse based on openness. It allows us to validate these cultural truths in public.
In my paper "Public Truth - Public Spaces" I describe how we use our knowledge to shape but also to create the cities in which we live in. There is a constant re-arrangement going on between what is deemed as private and what as public space. In-between you find many semi-private or semi-public spaces. The relationships between all of them are being constantly created within cities. Such epistemological concern - and space can be used to delineate myself from the other - touches upon important experiences many of us are making nowadays. But my real intention of writing this paper was to go against what Post-Modernist philosophies produce, namely a kind of silence once something is declared as a truth but which cannot be questioned any longer. Here it is important to see ourselves as part of an overall cultural development which allows us not only to articulate our views in public spaces, but also to let them be questioned by others and this without getting upset over this fact that there is someone else who questions the validity of what I assert. Crucial as an outcome is not the kind of meditation between different spheres, but rather everyone should have the Right to silence but equally experience fully the Right to speak up. The one is not possible without the other. So I would like to point out where our assumption of a rational dialogue must be questioned. Always there is at risk that when we speak that we may even insult the other due to our hidden agendas and unreflected assumptions as to what is 'rational' i.e. what we expect from the other to accept as to what we say and claim as being truth.
Hatto Fischer
Indeed if Louis Baeck would have been able to come to this year's ECCM Symposium, he would have complemented this with pointing out how little we in the Western World take into consideration the Islamic view of globalization and therefore what different debate it would mean if we would take their understanding of a global world as reference point. That could have been discussed, for instance, in the session about 'dialogue between cultures', but except for Kacem Abdelaziz was not really touched upon. Rather more stress was put upon branding our culture to be sold, so to speak, like an export commodity abroad as was the case of Hassemer or else it became a productivity of diplomacy when Guy Feaux de la Croix spoke about the need by politicians to make use of the productivity of our European culture to further European identity when abroad. There was, of course, as well the effort by Kostas Theologou in that session to validate on a much more scientific basis the term 'acculturation' but I was not entirely convinced by such model building as it appears to me to be to causal orientated. That is not what you have in mind when you refer to the need of any public truth to be open to being questioned by someone else. That implies much more the art of dialogue, so it seems. What do you make out of such an interpretation of mine?
Bart Verschaffel
Precisely in our information society there is a need to verify this information before it can be treated as validated knowledge. You know my position is that I believe that the university even if not perfect is nevertheless one of the few institutions still left which upholds some rules by which knowledge can be validated. As head of the department for planning and architecture at the University of Gent I see, of course, the overall Academic situation deteriorating. Many students wish to get a job but that is no longer automatic the case. Hence they have to compete and work very hard to get a decent job. As a result they prepare themselves to such a qualification based on no longer sharing the knowledge they acquire while a student with others. That is, however, the very opposite from what would be required with regards to validation of information. There must be a constant airing of opinions while searching for better formulations and new research findings to validate what is being claimed. Validation without sharing of information is consequently impossible to conceive as a scientific process of inquiry. as it appears to him and many others now. So while universities are still important institutional set-ups in which knowledge is validated, there is a worrying trend due to the newest academic qualification strategies called as well career mapping, job and head hunting etc. Moreover he sees that nowadays only a certain type of publication is asked for. Thus it is impossible to distinguish anymore between different forms of presenting man's quest for knowledge (formulating a hypothesis, gathering empirical evidence, aphorism, scientific article etc.). There is at risk that this differentiation in the status of knowledge is being lost due to one uniform format for all publications and which can be reproduced in similar other articles at will. Unfortunately too many succumb to a certain game being played around publication as it helps to build up their career. They no longer share knowledge with others but how can then knowledge be validated, and this according to mutually accepted rules? Once only a certain type of publication is accepted, soon everyone knows how it is done and therefore they no longer enter a real debate about knowledge. This kind of uniformization will cause a huge set back in universities aspiring to remain not merely places of higher learning but also of being challenging places to the intellect and therefore to society as a whole.
Hatto Fischer
Yes, human development does depend upon culture in the broadest sense of the word and that means a valid knowledge base as well. This is to provide and to give some orientation not only about what novel to read or what artistic developments took place in the Renaissance, but what is a responsible way of dealing with human questions about knowledge. It has ramification upon many things, including in what sort of city do we wish to live in and what can be done to enhance the living quality of everyone. After all human knowledge can only be valid if accessible to everyone and therefore everyone participating in the validation process.
Insofar as the ECCM Symposium attempted to focus on some specific topics, it can be reviewed by following question: what knowledge about cultural policy, the role of culture, the dialogue between cultures, cultural planning and the tasks of European Capitals of Culture was validated on the basis of what was presented, discussed and commented upon? In other words, can we say at the end of this Symposium that altogether a step further was taken to make publically accessible the knowledge about these specific subject fields?
Moreover all these discussions about culture in relation to other fields have already acquired a knowledge base over the years in and outside the European Capitals of Culture. Their story from the very beginning is told very convincingly by a book edited by Jürgen Mittag. The telling of stories is a part of the ongoing practical discourse about the meaning of culture and cultural policy within the European context. Thus the ECCM Symposium of Oct. 2007 followed the one held as well in Athens in 2005. It allows for further going reflections a certain time line to measure the progress made so far in terms of clarification of cultural policy principles.
Of interest is that the Municipality of Athens announced in Oct. 2007 the opening of a Documentation Centre about the Capitals of Culture in Europe. Understood in a positive sense, it intends to be an archive, but if those working there are subject to appointment by the mayor of Athens, then doubts about its independency exist. It has been proven over and again that those European Capitals of Cities ran into difficulties once politics intervened in the work of the artistic director. That is not any different when a matter of wishing to build up and to continue up-dating a memory base of something which had started thanks to Melina Mercouri when Athens became the first European Capital of Culture in 1985. Thus the crucial question is if this archive can really fulfill the demand of 'integrity of memory' as demanded by Michael D. Higgins and others. That includes recognizing free from political influences and interests all those who contribute to making this story of European Capitals of Culture into an enriching experience accessible to everyone.
Bart Verschaffel
When a major effort is done to bring together people with various discourses, there remains always the question but what were the outcomes and in terms of future perspectives what will be some of the further going steps.
Hatto Fischer
Bernard Conlon from Belfast would put it as follows: the moment something develops into a more serious networking, then other issues arise and this at the risk of loosing some of the initiatial innocence which helped get the thing going in the first place. His remarks are a reminder that cultural developments are sometimes real set-backs or failures once it has become impossible to keep everyone together, in dialogue with each other, since the great divide, namely money draws new borders.
Bart Verschaffel
The 'Network of Networks' was the key aim of Spyros Mercouris whereas there is a difference between informal and formal networking methods with Kids' Guernica doing quite well by remaining modest, decentralized, bottom-up and free of hierarchies. The policy of Kids' Guernica as expressed by Takuya Kaneda is meant to facilitate such informal networking. It continues by getting someone else going in another country, place and time in order to initiate a learning experiences based on doing collaborative work while painting collectively a peace mural.
Hatto Fischer
It is safe to say that all the participants of the Symposium were moved by what the children had expressed through the Kids' Guernica murals, but that is always the case especially after "the souls of children have touched the canvas while they paint" (Thomas Economacos). As heard when various coordinators of these actions which brought about these murals reflected upon the experiences made by primarily the children but also by all those who were involved in such cultural actions becoming community wide ones, that then does allow for further going thoughts about war and peace and the role of culture in this process.
For instance, Savina Tarsitano expressed very clearly after she had experienced the project in Martinique the need to reflect upon the new role of the artist in relationship to the community. By doing a Kids' Guernica painting there, she managed to bring into a cultural centre precisely to those children and youngsters who had refused until then to participate in any of the community initiatives for culture and social actions. In her case this went even a step further as those children she involved were members of a gang called 'Baghdad'. By entering together the collaborative learning process which is always the case when painting together a Kids' Guernica sized canvas (7,8 x 3,5 m), she overcame her fear of them and they their mistrust of her. Savina feels now the responsibility for 'her children', as she calls them. They asked her if she will come back and not just leave them behind while she returns to Europe.
The presence of Madame Galot at the Symposium and Kids' Guernica Exhibition in Athens underlines furthermore the wish of Martinique to host in future a Kids' Guernica event and therefore connect the Kids' Guernica family with a place known to have experienced back in recent history the slave trade and the impact of all kinds of colonisations. Appropriately the title of the mural from Martinique says it literally all: 'end of all discrimination'. Such a demand resonates throughout history and even in this 21st century we face modern forms of slavery and discirimination in need to be overcome.
Crucial is the awareness that each person has a story to tell. It touched me very much when Michael D. Higgins said to Jad Salman, the artist from Palestine, that the story of Palestine is one of the most difficult ones to tell. Indeed, not every narrative is easy never mind to fulfill at the same time the demand to give truthful accounts and thereby avoid any ideological distortion or even propaganda technique to beautify exactly there things where reality speaks another language.
There are more reflections to come in future. To be sure, along this path there will always be on our minds the Blind Boys in India who made that beautiful mural thanks to the work done by Asit Poddar. Equally there are all the other children and youths who have created collectively narratives whether in Chios and Izmir, Martinique, Afghanistan, Nepal, Japan, USA, Australia, Georgia or just here in Athens at the 108th Elementary School. The latter, about two hundred of them came to the opening of the exhibition. Unforgetable shall be how they greeted the participants of the Symposium "Productivity of Culture", namely with their lovely 'hellos'. Their presence came about thanks to the work by Thomas Economacos.
There are many others like Sara Lowndes from Dubai who contributed to make this exhibition possible. She conveyed the message from the children at her school in Dubai and who have shown empathy for those who are not as lucky as they are insofar as they live in peace and can visit their friends whenever they want. There is as well Magnolia Albertazzi who coordinated the eight Kids' Guernica coordinators when they narrated some of their Kids' Guernica experiences. Without Takuya Kaneda from Japan and the international coordinator of Kids' Guernica this coming together would be inconceivable. His quiet presence and wish to keep things simple is an invaluable asset. Then there is Deniz Hasirci from Izmir who presented together with Efi Lipari and Vice President of the Prefecture, Nikos Nichtas from Chios this peace mural reflecting a Greek-Turkish dialogue about a friendship which has started between all who were involved in that painting. It was interesting to hear from Bernard Conlon about the wall murals in Belfast and what plans he has for the future with the youth of Belfast. To whom participating in this Kids' Guernica Exhibition and ECCM Symposium was an inspiration worthwhile thinking about how to take that idea and modify it so that something can be done to further the peace process back home.
Bart Verschaffel
Hatto Fischer
Lets turn our attention to the key question: could the ECCM as a network linking former, present and future European Capitals of Culture include still other, very similar networks? There is a process under way world wide to adopt Melina's idea. Therefore a possible outcome of the last three sessions is to focus as a 'network of networks' to the global dimension and how this shall alter the concept of culture. By way of this practical example we see already how an original idea has been validated. It has become a key success story within the European Union and now finds now more and more all kinds of imitations throughout the world. In addition to that, further validation may come by the idea of networking being extended from cities to universities. We did hear the report by Bill Chambers about the newly created University Network of European Capitals of Culture.
Thus my first question would be not to you but to Gleb Firsov who said something about 'Network of Networks'. It would be important to know why he makes an additional restriction by speaking about a 'Network of Cultural Networks' (and not just Networks) when in fact there exist also transportation networks or as in his case a network of nuclear cities which can talk about culture.
As to the issue of membership linked to being inclusive or not, in my opinion that does not follow necessarily out of defining membership according to certain principles. As a matter of fact, no formal or for that matter also no informal network (like Kids' Guernica) can continue to exist if there is not some policy in place, some philosophy behind the actions for no network can be open to everything. That would make it otherwise too arbitrary.
Moreover, without becoming a formal network, you cannot receive any funds; right now the informal meetings taking place between the newly designated European Capitals of Culture is made possible because they all have a running budget which can facilitate such meetings. Once that year is over, they have no longer such financial ease.
And any network needs a concrete location, an organisational base, a website and some initiatives to keep all the networks together. It requires a minimum of formal structure, but of course the art of networking is always as Takuya Kaneda would put it an art of bringing people together and this free from hierarchies since it is they that make life so difficult.
Whether the ECCM will get out of its current crisis by reaching for the stars i.e. becoming a member of the 'Network of Networks', this has to be questioned how realistic is that. Many networks are disappearing simply e.g. the Creative City Network in Canada has no longer the governmental support to keep it going. At the same time, it has to be asked what chances the US Capital of Culture has insofar American Cities would be willing to join something linked in reality to an extension of Catalonian foreign cultural policy?
I agree with Gleb Firsof about the need to link rich and poor, well known and not so well known networks and if things are to be taken serious, then the 'Network of Networks' must have a legitimate basis and be well known.
Altogether I consider the outcome of the ECCM Symposium in need of further evaluation especially in terms of what the ECCM members think are the development chances of such a 'Network of Networks'.
Informal networks like Kids' Guernica have it there easier as they are carried forward by concrete bottom-up actions and need little financing while at global level there is a convincing coordinator with Takuya Kaneda in Japan and who ensures together with an international committee of Kids' Guernica that certains standards are kept when children enter a collaborative learning process to paint another one of those big peace murals the size of Picasso's Guernica (7,8 x 3,5 m). That ensures trust and a validity of things as something is not merely claimed but really done. Here practice precedes any further going reflection.
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An attempt at a resume:
If a symposium of this kind managed to come even close to fulfilling this dream of mankind in this direction, then some progress has been made along this long road of wishing the idea of culture as means for peace and not war. There was some uncertainty in the symposium around this point but the stress on productivity of culture would suggest putting energies to work to ensure dialogue is a way to peace.
Hence it shall be important to carry a clear idea about the productivity of culture to Brussels and other decision making centres. Insofar the productivity of culture is linked to the development of democracy, that complementary side to creativity needs to be taken into consideration at all times.
To discuss the various issues all this raises meant the Symposium 'Productivity of Culture' had to focus on such important fields as cultural policy, role of culture, dialogue between cultures, cultural planning and especially on how the crucial culture-economy relationship within cities has been affected once they have been for one year a European Capital of Culture.
At the same time, it is important to note that the institution of Capital of Culture has been adopted by now world wide, while Kids' Guernica actions are becoming community based actions everywhere. Therefore, the symposium wanted to focus as well on the idea of creating a world-wide ‘Network of Networks’. The aim would be to link European and international Capitals of Culture with various networks (ECCM - Network of European Capitals of Culture and Month; Capital of Cultures Networks in USA, Latin America, Volga Region and Arabic Countries, and the University Network of European Capitals of Culture). Underlying all these networking activities is the recognition of one commonality, namely the need to face together the global challenge to cultures and therefore to cultural diversities.
Kids' Guernica stands according to the international coordinator Takuya Kaneda for a kind of networking which is bottom-up, face to face and without any hierarchy. In knowing that hierarchy determines still many places and organisations, and even philosophers have called it an irresolvable problem, nevertheless it is encouraging to see at work an open and non hierarchical networking. Kids' Guernica sets an example. Such cultural actions involving children, youth and adults in a collaborative learning process needs to be encouraged in all spheres of life. Indeed, Kids' Guernica exemplifies how everyone can enter a peace process once this collaborative learning makes possible communication based on friendship, openness and trust. It is brought about by entering through the imagination a real dialogue with the world. For only when the imagination is activated, then also adults develop in the words of Takuya Kaneda empathy for others and begin to note and to understand their fears and needs.
The world of the twenty-first century needs not resignation, but an optimistic culture to end the permanent institutionalization of war. In this context the cultural dimension within European foreign policy becomes a crucial backbone of the promise made in Europe after 1945, namely 'never again war'. It is linked to what Kids' Guernica expresses, for example, in the peace mural from Nagasaki entitled: "Re-building the city after the bomb!"
Since Picasso painted Guernica in response to those astrocities committed in 1937, the world has witnessed many more Guernicas. It includes Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but since 1945 has not stopped there. Cities like Beirut, Baghdad and Sarajevo, but also countless villages in rural areas come to mind. Interestingly enough Dusan Sidjanski reflected upon the mural from Nepal as it was brought about by a dialogue between children from Katmandu and a village at the foothill of the Himalayan mountains.
Thus by taking heed of the enormous productivity of Picasso, and in seeing how this is constantly reinforced and renewed by children who are much freer than adults to express their own imagination, it becomes apparent why freedom and culture not only go together, but how they can contribute to a new kind of 'Productivity of Diplomacy'. As explained by Guy Feaux de la Croix, that should be included in all peace keeping and conflict resolvement mechanisms. For that to happen, it must include in future those children who through the Kids' Guernica experience grow up with different solutions in mind. These solutions evolve out of direct dialogues which free most importantly the minds from the fear to speak up in public. A real dialogue can strenghten convictions of those favoring non violent actions. It can also prompt everyone to act in time when it comes to disarm those willing to resort to violent means rather than to dialogue.
As said already this idea of strengthening peace keeping and conflict prevention through a 'productivity of culture' was discussed at the Symposium by Guy Feaux de la Croix. He did so in the session devoted to dialogue between cultures. Naturally such thoughts can end up in many queries e.g. whether or not culture can contribute to peace or else may be as well a source of conflict and war. Yet that would have to include religion and a much further going analysis as to the causes of war. Here Karl Erik Norrman, General Secretary of the European Parliament of Culture, made some sober reflections in view of what he considers the war with Iraq to be, namely the worst mistake made by Europeans since Second World War. Michael D. Higgins added to that the comment how little the European discourse names real issues as if there is a defect amongst the intellectuals and therefore language is devoid of substantial meaning when upholding the sovereignty of a national border means keeping silent about all the Human Rights abuses. That outrage and equally despair as to the state of affairs within the European Union could be felt throughout this Symposium.
To overcome despair, equally forgetfulness by not naming the real issues, 'productivity of culture' needs to be based according to Michael D. Higgins on an active cultural policy, one which can rely on the 'integrity of memory'. Moreover, that what takes place and becomes a human experience should be recognized and articulated in all its contradictions and incomprehensibility. Understanding is not a given nor a norm, but a way to bear empathy upon difficulties to articulate ideas and thus a way to support individuals in their search for expressions. For that to happen cultural policy has to provide public space. Bart Verschaffel calls 'public' more precisely 'cultural' truths. After all culture is what people want to do together and share. They do so out of wish not to become prisoners in their own constructed worlds, but to be able to question these self acclaimed truths in order to go further.
Above all the world of the twenty-first century needs to create conditions for culture to exist and to develop. This is possible only when humanity frees itself from the permanent war. It does so by letting people from regions of conflict tell their stories even if most difficult to narrate e.g. Palestinians to Israelis and vice versa. Although Jad Salman from Palestine and Prof. Kacem from Tunesia raised doubts at the ECCM Symposium that this necessary dialogue between cultures is still possible, all efforts must be undertaken to ensure that the tributes feeding the great stream of humanity do not dry out. This includes as Prof. Kacem suggests preparing students to face things which the existing generation of professors and teachers have failed to take up. Again it means the culture must become productive precisely in areas where shortcomings are felt and lived daily e.g. the literature and poetry of Arabic countries not translated and read in Europe and vice versa.
Michael D. Higgins gave a special poetry reading at the Athens Centre in Mets to start of the ECCM Symposium 'Productivity of Culture'. It was organised thanks to the Greek-Irish Society with Emer Ronan as president and made possible thanks to the hospitality of Rosemary of Athens Centre. Poetry is made, explained Michael D. Higgins during his reading, when you write down something and you know that is a complete poem. Hence it seems most appropriate to ask another poet to read a poem as conclusion for this Symposium. For we have amongst our guests the Greek Poetess Katerina Anghelaki Rooke. She will read a poem "This" - this is life. I heard it first when she read it in Kamilari during our "Myth of the City' conference back then in 1995 and maybe you, Bart, will remember that magic evening with 500 people from the village listening to her voice and absorbing deep underneath their skin the meaning of every word she used to describe life as it is.
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